E7: Leadership and Culture-Building in the Age of Remote Work

Episode #7 Leadership and Culture-Building in the Age of Remote Work 

Podcast and Copyright: Work it, Remote

Host: Erika Bergen

Published: January 9, 2025

[00:00:00] Erika BergenHow many of you have had the experience of working with a really great leader, somebody you admired, you want to model? And on the other hand, how many of you have had the experience of working with somebody who was a pretty awful leader, the example of what you absolutely do not want to be when you lead?

Chances are somebody popped into your head when you thought of great leader and awful leader, because these experiences stick with us. And so we're going to tackle today, the topic of how do you lead effectively? So that you are considered one of the great leaders in this now remote and hybrid workplace.

Now, when I say leaders, I'm speaking about people who are leading by authority and those who are leading by influence. Leading by authority means that you have a title or a place in the hierarchy that gives you positional power over others. And pretty much everybody is leading by influence, right? If you're building relationships and alignment and trying to [00:01:00] create partnership, then you're having to move people, lead them through decision making, lead them to the place where you would like the conversation or the outcome to go.

Via your influence. Now, before we turn to the episode, I wanna take a moment to introduce our guest, Kerri Warner, who I am so excited, agreed to join me for this discussion. We recorded this back in October, 2024, and since then I'm thrilled to say that Kerri has become the new head of Employee Communications, culture and Engagement at PayPal.

This is great news for Kerri and PayPal because she is so good at what she does, and she's gonna have such a meaningful impact. there. I know it and I cannot wait to see what's ahead for her. before joining PayPal, Kerri was the global head of internal communications at Spotify. And she also spent many years at MasterCard where she served as global head of employee communications, and also the global head of leadership development and engagement.

She also spent many years during her career at American Express leading communication efforts there and spent time as a consultant at consultancies, Deloitte, PwC, and also MSL, where she consulted clients on these same issues, culture, engagement, and leadership.

Kerri and I met. and got a chance to work together and thankfully get to know one another when we both worked at MSL.

, and she immediately came to mind for me as I started to think about this topic of leadership and this desire that I had to really dig into it and look at the shifts needed for remote work.

As you just heard, she has a wealth of knowledge and experience in the subject area. In addition to all of that, she's also a certified coach and she's someone who has her finger on the pulse of how to bring out the best in people. And we all need a little bit more of that these days. 

 Now this was my first interview ever on this podcast. And like I said, it was recorded at the end of October. So you'll notice a couple of time references throughout, but at the point when I made the ask to her, it was only September. And [00:03:00] this was only an idea, this podcast, Work It Remote.

I didn't have a website. I barely had a teaser and I wasn't sure what Kerri was going to say, but she enthusiastically said, yes, which also just demonstrates how incredibly generous and supportive she is. 

 I just want to give thanks to her because her saying yes was really a big step for me and feeling like this podcast was real.

Okay. We have a lot to unpack today. So let's get into it.

[00:03:44] Erika BergenI am so excited, Kerri, that you are joining us today and that you're going to share your wisdom and your insight as we're all trying to navigate this remote hybrid world.

[00:03:53] Kerri: Erika, I'm delighted to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:03:58] Erika BergenI thought we could just start with getting [00:04:00] a perspective from you on what the landscape is right now. Things seem to be just changing rapidly. So from your perspective, what is the state of remote and hybrid work? And how are employers thinking about this and deciding, what's right for their organization?

[00:04:19] Kerri Warner: Yeah, it's such an interesting time. I think 

What I would say and what I think most of us see in our reading is that it's actually everywhere on the spectrum, if you will. So right, I think it was last month where the CEO of Amazon, Andy Jassy said, return to office five days a week, starting in January, recently as last week, the Amazon web services CEO, Matt Garmin, apparently doubled down on that message to say, Hey, if you don't like that,, find another job in an employee town hall.

Essentially, on one end, and then on the other sort of far end, I'll hearken back to my previous employer, and I think it [00:05:00]was last week, actually, Katerina Berg, who's the Spotify CHRO, was quoted saying something like, I believe it was, you can't spend a lot of time hiring grownups and treating them as children. Which was to say, we're going to continue on our path of flexibility. They, , first very much embraced a distributed first model. And while I will say they did move away from a distributed first 100%, we, , defer to our distributed employees. They have not wavered on the. Flexibility piece. So that model is more of a you can choose if the job allows you to choose from a work from home, fully remote or office. Just know what you get. They're going to be different experiences, and one is not better than the other, but they will be different. And so we accept that. And then, of course, right? A little bit more in the middle is this hybrid, a little bit of a tangle in companies like MasterCard and PayPal and many others trying to [00:06:00] make it work.

make the hybrid thing work for businesses, for people, and of course, you know, for the culture as well.

[00:06:07] Erika BergenWhen employers are trying to decide. Which model is right for them, right? When Amazon says to your point, everybody's in the office and then Spotify says, okay, we're going to stick with flexibility. Right? These are 2 organizations. I think about them.

They're both digitally forward. Like, they have digital forward products. Amazon does have warehouses right but I'm presuming this is not necessarily the warehouse staff because that's not an option for warehouse teams this is for the people who are.

Sitting behind desks, doing marketing and comms and HR and all these other different job functions. Is this about just a, this is like a difference in leadership style. Is this something that the culture is driving and how employers are coming to these decisions? What's your take?

[00:06:54] Kerri Warner: So you hit on something interesting. , I think that's actually changed as well over time. So in the beginning, in the early [00:07:00] days, post pandemic, um, And we had this great resignation. And so a lot of reliance, I think more reliance was used on data. And they asked employees, What do you want as we think about people coming back to offices? And a lot of companies said, Hey, our employees really value this flexibility. Let's lean into that. And that was also a way of helping with retention and engagement. And so that was still a step forward for them, but also kind of bridging that. And then that shifted. If you remember, not too long ago, there was a lot of talk around this quiet quitting. And I think now CEOs are being more directive and decisive about what they want, because you can find data to support either. You really can. And in some cases, I am seeing CEOs say. Data this or data not. This is what I want. If you think about a culture and how a cultural behaviors are defined for a company that's very CEO [00:08:00] driven. And so, yes, we think about the world we're living in what the world demands for our business to be competitive. But that's really comes from a CEO. So I think more CEOs are saying, Look, this is what I want. But I also think there's a better question they could be asking, which is what are the circumstances and conditions that contribute to both our people and our business Performing at the highest level and then focus on that because I think we're pointing to remote work as a in a way, a little bit of scapegoating of what some more challenging problems are to address.

[00:08:39] Erika BergenSo for somebody who, cause we might have some job seekers listening. And one of the things that I've heard quite Come up right for, for people that are in jobs where there was flexibility and all of a sudden there's a change of heart and there's not flexibility. Right? And so I have a friend going through this right now where all of a sudden there's a doubling down [00:09:00] like 

you were able to work from home whenever you wanted, but now you got to be in the office four days a week and it is completely turning her world upside down. 

So as a job seeker, are there clues as to what you should be paying attention to so that you can determine the appetite for flexibility or the, like the sustained appetite for flexibility within the organization you might be considering joining.

[00:09:24] Kerri Warner: Yeah, I think I would be very direct about it in an interview and ask the question of what is your position on flexibility today? And how has it evolved? Since the days of the pandemic or even prior, because then you can get a sense of the employer is going to do a lot of flexing and responsiveness then the follow up question to that is 

Where did those decisions come from? Or what led you to make those decisions? And they might say employee feedback. They might say, well, we changed CEOs and it was really important to the CEO that we have now. So you don't even have to look for clues. I would be very open [00:10:00] and direct about it.

Yeah. Um, to say to really ask the employer where they stand on that and then to understand, as you pointed out more importantly, is this kind of thing going to stick? Do they see it evolving more? How many changes have there been in this? And when people are coming to the office, Which again to me is sort of where my heart is with it. What are we coming to the office for? Right? Instead of focusing on the that kind of tactical thing. Well, we know that the feedback is we just do better brainstorming. Or we do better long term strategy. You know, our annual strategy planning is done in person, and we bring people together twice a year for that.

And I personally think there's a lot behind that. I think when companies are talking about culture and oh, well, you know, the culture is suffering. I think a lot of times what they really mean is that there is a collective energy that comes when people come together with the shared intent, which is to drive the business forward [00:11:00] to, you know, whatever it might be to come up with the next big thing and that it's that shared energy that's missing because culture is really in, in my view anyway, just the attitudes, the norms and the behaviors that describe what it's really like to work at a company and whether you are full time remote hybrid or in an office, you can demonstrate those behaviors as long as they're very clear. so I, I would more about intention around coming to the office. So I know I've kind of been everywhere with that question but I think the short answer is just in terms of the, for the job seekers be very direct about it and gauge the reception to your directness that's important too.

[00:11:43] Erika Bergen. Yeah. Kerri, there's really no substitute for being direct. So when it comes to physically being in an office and a company's culture, how connected do you think those two things are?

[00:11:58] Kerri Warner: It's interesting. So [00:12:00] as I looked through Accenture's 2025 Life Trends report, which just came out, I noticed there's a decrease in engagement and culture since 2022 as return to office mandates have become more common. So for those who are saying, look, we're losing that culture, we're losing engagement by being geographically distinct, First, I think there's more to unpack there, and , we very quickly go to lump culture and engagement together or culture and being in the office together.

But I really see culture. What companies are looking for is again this collective energy and shared experience of people being together and that energy that comes from that because culture. are really the behaviors and the attitudes and the norms that describe what it's like to work at a company. And those could and should be visible [00:13:00] and demonstrated whether you're working from home, from a coffee shop, from the office.

[00:13:04] Erika BergenYeah, sounds like there's a whole lot more we could unpack there and I really hear that because I have often felt like we too often co mingle the idea of culture and physically being in an office, but I think underpinning all of this is Is the idea of leadership

So let's shift more directly to leadership and I'd love to hear your take on what are the skills that need to be developed in order to be an effective leader in today's remote and hybrid environment.

Kerri Warner:

 So it may seem counterintuitive in a world now of AI. And more remote work and more tools than ever. I see what's more needed from leaders is that human, very human centered [00:14:00] approach to leadership. And there's three skills that I think about that would really, to me, set the bar for an exemplary leader. One is having more of a coaching skill, I call them kind of the three C's, but coaching skills, communication skills, and consulting skills. So a coaching skill is asking something more like, well, well, if all of the things you just told me, Where do you want to focus on first? Instead of this is what I need from you. That kind of command and control. So how can you coach? Because what you really want to do, particularly with those who are working remotely, is you want them to be discovering more of what their next step should be. And you want to help them because that's also where the learning is and where the excitement is and where you can help inspire them. It might even be something in terms of thinking about, what's most making this difficult for you [00:15:00] instead of, I see this is not working the way that we wanted it to or the way that I expected. And so helping them to uncover that can also help them to be better problem solvers. And you act as a coach and support along the way. The second one is around communication skills, which is like, I think of it as like tuning in. Being attuned and then fine tuning your own skills. So being Attuned to what you are seeing on a screen or with people that you are, you know, working with face to face And and noticing some of the nuances that in such a quote unquote busy world Or where we have so much going on.

[00:15:41] Kerri Warner: We so forget to just pause and connect with people on a very human basis and read what we're getting in front of us. And that requires taking a beat and attuning to that. And then tuning in and observing and asking a question about something that you're seeing. You look really excited about this [00:16:00] project.

Am I reading that right? Or you seem a little apprehensive. to talk about that? Um, and then fine tuning your response. So, one of the things during the, as folks were coming back to the office, and this was at the time when I was running leadership development at MasterCard, we talked about, you know, leaders could be having these conversations about how people feel coming back into the office and, and, and folks are saying, well, that would be kind of an empathetic response.

And I thought there's even a difference in saying to someone, I guess. How do you feel about coming back into the office one day a week, two days a week, once a month, whatever it was. And then they'll say, Oh, good, bad, you know, usually a one or two word answer

[00:16:43] Erika BergenYeah.

[00:16:44] Kerri Warner: thing. What are you feeling about coming back to the office?

It's just a more expansive question and it gives you more to work with. People feel a little more seen and heard and understood, and it gives them the opportunity to give you a little bit more as a leader. And so those [00:17:00] are really fine tuning communication skills as a leader. and then the third piece is, this kind of consulting skill.

So having been a former consultant, there was blueprint really for how you approach or projects. And you think about, you know, let's do our let's look at our, you know, our current state. We're going to do some discovery. We're going to identify define what a future state is. What are the gaps to get there?

And then kind of what's our plan? And how are we going to manage this? And, you know, what is that setting the right targets and deliverables and all of that? And and that to me just suggests, as it is in the consulting world, although, of course, there's hierarchy. But this idea of leader and employee being more like, partners in a shared pursuit and the shared pursuit is whatever the objectives are for that particular team or group. Or maybe it's even larger for the organization as a whole, and we just play different [00:18:00] roles. So if I'm a leader, I might need to sort of sell things into senior executives. Um, and if it's somebody who is on my team, they might be doing all of the data analysis that I'm going to be bringing into some of these meetings, or I bring them in with me, and they talk through that.

But really, I look at them as a partner in a shared pursuit, and so I think that those sort of the coaching, the communication skills and that consulting mindset or consulting skills, because if you can lay things out with that level of clarity as consultants do, then you can alleviate a lot of back and forth. particularly with remote workers about, well, when do you need this by? And so you, you've again, kind of really established what the, the wireframe and the, actually the details behind that is for working together and set the expectations together. And then you're just off to the races, and checking in more along the way.

And I think to me, that's where leadership has a huge role to play. and, In different ways than leaders behave before many [00:19:00] times, not for everyone. Some leaders have been doing this kind of thing all along, but I think if they can nail those three skills, you go a long way.

[00:19:07] Erika BergenYeah, there's so much in there. Um, I love that. Thanks for sharing those three things. As I'm hearing that it reminds me of this, the World Economic Forum, or at least their research group in 2024 listed emotional intelligence. As the most important leadership trait. And I think what you're saying also reinforces that it's like that human element of leading it's all of these things, these, this heightened awareness of the people around you, which can get very complicated. In this remote world, because You miss that opportunity to get those nonverbal cues or to see the way the person feels after the camera turns off.

Right. Cause it's very easy when the camera was on to turn on

[00:19:55] Kerri Warner: Yes.

[00:19:56] Erika Bergenand then when the camera's off to let your real self show. Right. [00:20:00] So, but you never get the visibility of that as a leader. I think what you're saying here in the consulting and some of the coaching is that you're, and the open ended questions.

Is that You're trying to bring some of that authenticity. You're inviting that in more to those more formal conversations.

[00:20:17] Kerri Warner: Yes. Before we're employees or leaders or wherever people are in the hierarchy, we're all sort of just human beings. And we've all had experiences growing up that shaped the beliefs and norms. and attitudes we have around things like candidly, being direct. So when you think even about leadership programs and skills, you can teach skills, but I think there's also something that has to be acknowledged and honored that it might be very counter how a person, , and, uh, You know, leadership development is not nor should it be therapy, but I think we just also have to acknowledge that there's a challenge for many leaders and [00:21:00] understandably, if some of these things that we're expecting in this more remote world, and we're asking for some of these softer skills to be demonstrated that's going to be that might have a bit of an on ramp for leaders to and to give them some space and grace to begin to practice those. and I think that's something that's sometimes not, you know, we think, Oh, well, let's just teach people how to do it. But when that bumps up against some very different, earlier experiences, you're asking a lot and that's okay. But I think at the same time, we have to sort of recognize that.

[00:21:32] Erika BergenSo how do you set up a strong leader employee relationship from the start, especially if you're a leader that's working in a remote environment?

[00:21:41] Kerri Warner: I always say nobody likes to be managed, really. People want to be inspired, right? You don't want to hire people, um, and manage them. You want to Hire engaged people and inspire them. It's very different. 

[00:21:54] Erika BergenI love, I love that sort of way of thinking about it. So, As an employee, you're coming [00:22:00] in engaged, , you're already opting in.

This is about how do we get you to take that next step and be inspired in your work?

[00:22:08] Kerri Warner: Exactly. You attract those people who are really jazzed about the role itself, about the culture, about where the business is going.

You bring them in. We're often most engaged on our day one, and so they're already engaged. And now the role is, how do you continue to inspire them? Not manage them again, because I think the more managing you have to do You risk engagement going down. So, so of it comes to hiring people that already, um, have a, you know, come in with that, that engaged sense and then you inspire them.

I always think about when I'm hiring people, I like to ask them, what are the conditions in which you do your best work? And I, as a leader, then, you feel that it's my role as long as what they say is within the boundaries. If they say, look, I do my best work when I'm on an island and I'm disconnected 24 seven, obviously that's going to be a problem because their job, [00:23:00] a lot of in part what's required in their job might be collaboration and getting buy in.

And so you can't do that completely disconnected, but Then they say, Well, you know, I think of work a lot in terms of we all need caves and campfires time to sort of or are most of us do to go away and do our thing quietly and be undisturbed a bit and deep focus and then times to come around the campfire and come together and come up with some new idea by riffing a little bit. And so when you ask them, that question. Then your job as a leader, it's actually almost agnostic of where that person is sitting because instead I'm focused on. I know what this person told me are the conditions where they do their best work. I, as a leader, know that I need to plug into something that is deeply human for all of us. And so I'm just gonna adjust my tactics somewhat when 100 percent remote. Um, versus somebody who is in person, say like me. So if that person is 100 percent remote and they hop on a [00:24:00] call, I might say to them, Hey, don't know if you've been back to back on calls. Do you want to take a minute or two? And we can just kind of like have a coffee and talk for a few minutes because that's what I'm thinking of myself because that's what I might do if like Sally was just coming into my office so I think that that piece is a little more incumbent upon the leader, which I know veers a little bit off of your question, but maybe just thinking again about engaging and inspiring, um, remote folks.

[00:24:25] Erika BergenSo some of what I'm hearing there is this idea of creating real connections. With people too, right? And that's something that I've heard from a remote worker standpoint is it's hard to build trust when you're working purely remotely. You don't have those water cooler moments. You don't have the let's go out and grab a quick lunch.

You don't have the, you know, let's go into a conference room and shut the door and just, yeah. vent about that crazy thing that just happened in a meeting. You just don't get that and you don't even know necessarily who [00:25:00] you can do that with. And I'm sure there's a way. And that's where my question is because it does seem like it does require a different level of intentionality that for me, in my experience has come from actually physically getting into the office.

here and there. But I know that that's a privilege that not everybody has. So how can you build trust and build friendships, real friendships and connections with people in not a hybrid environment, but much more in a remote work environment? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:33] Kerri Warner: like you said, look, I think the ideal situation is one where even if you are 100 percent remote, that there is some allowance of a coming together for a team because one full day together or two days together in person face to face. Pays dividends for the next six months. I think we've all experienced something where [00:26:00] wow, you know, even if you're like even even if you prefer to be remote but like I don't or you know, when your personal I don't know if I want To go that part of you go there You're at this party or this gathering and you've met someone you just clicked through that Conversation and that brings you forward and then you're like, okay that you see them writing, you pick up, you know, you respond to them pretty quickly.

Um, you just felt that and so to the extent that that can happen in any way, shape or form, that to me is the fastest path to to that. So that's kind of also being intentional about what we do face to face. I also think you can find people who are Looking for that same thing, and you can take the initiative to say, hey, does anyone want to do virtual lunch?

Like, bring your lunch. We'll just talk about I don't know, these three things, or we'll just even see how it goes. But between 12 and 1230, like, Who's in and you can take the initiative to kind of cast that out and literally as if you're sitting at a lunch table, but instead, you know, [00:27:00] the benefit is not everyone has to see here that you chewing was when you're chewing.

You can go on mute, whatever. But you know, you do bring people together in that way as best you can. and then I think about, you know, those friendships and that's where we go back to affinity groups or ERGs where that is also a place to find something. So where can you begin to find that? Um, or the person who, you know, spoke up in the meeting and you're thinking, wow, I had that same question, but I actually was kind of thinking I might look weird if I asked. Write to that person afterwards and give that, say, hey, I thought it took a lot of courage. I don't know if it did or didn't for you, but it seemed like it took a lot of courage and I was really impressed by that. That immediately, first of all, as long as it's genuine on your part, it's going to be It was probably the that person is going to go home with that at night, and that is going to create a connection, but it's an authentic connection. It's a you had an experience of someone else during your work day, and instead of it being a thought bubble in your head, you took the initiative to tell them that [00:28:00] whatever it was, or, hey, I really, interested in how you came to that conclusion. Can you walk me through that a little bit more minutes, 15 minutes, and you're on a call with them.

So to try to create anything that gives you this sort of one on one kind of interaction. and so it's having to be kind of an explorer or scientist and look for those things across your day. It should just be very intentional about it.

[00:28:22] Erika BergenAnd one thing that I've done, um, to this reminds me that I've done in, in remote work is to just call people out of the blue. I think sometimes we can get so stuck in our calendar and we can get so stuck with needing to schedule time with people that I'll make an effort to just Call somebody and to, kind of intentionally interrupt their day, but intentional because I'm just trying to write, just like connect with them and I just have a really quick question and I just need their answer on it and it takes the formality.

out of the conversation and allows for a little bit more authenticity.

[00:28:59] Kerri Warner: I'm [00:29:00] so glad you said that. I always say, especially if you've gone. In an email exchange, more than one round. It's another reason. So one spontaneity to just do that, I think is fabulous. But also it can be so much better to cut to the true intent or the heart of something by just picking up the phone and saying, like, I always pick up the phone, just pick up the phone.

If it's going more than once or twice, pick up the phone. Just say, Hey, can we just talk this through? Or you get some funky email and You start to believe the thoughts in your head of this person that doesn't like it or this, that, like, stop all that. Pick up the phone. It's also just a again. It kind of goes counter to what a normal day would be like. And by doing that kind of thing, picking up the phone, you may begin to see other people do that. And before you know that you are not sort of responding to a culture. You are shaping a culture of what it's like to be, an employee at your company remote or not that we pick up the phone.

I feel like remote workers have a lot of value to add [00:30:00] into the culture of an organization especially when you're with an organization where most people are in person or at least are in person quite a bit during the week there's a culture that can be created by that, right?

[00:30:13] Erika BergenWhen people are in close physical proximity to one another, there, there's a subtle way in which people understand. You know, what is what's the idea? That's a good idea. And what's the idea? That's a bad idea, right? you miss some of that when you're remote. Right. And so in some ways that can be detrimental because you're not necessarily picking up on the things that are going to help you advance your career.

 but at the same time, it's a huge value because you're in it, but you're in it in a way where you can also provide a fresh perspective because you're not in close. physical proximity. You don't have to see how people are physically responding when you're talking. So you can just, you can just say it

[00:30:55] Kerri Warner: That's right.

[00:30:55] Erika Bergenand do the mic drop and then just let everybody, you know, respond and [00:31:00] not cut yourself short in your participation in the group.

[00:31:04] Kerri Warner: Yes, I think that's a beautiful perspective and spot on. You can also sometimes see, things that other people aren't seeing because they are in such close physical proximity that you might see some flags in something because you, in a way, you've widened the aperture you're seeing sort of a broader picture sometimes and you're, and you might be a little bit outside of that.

Let's let's face it, you physically are for sure. Um, but that's okay. And I think there's also something that is important, which is for those who have chosen to be fully remote in an organization that has both to also go in with eyes wide open, that it might feel sometimes a little bit uncomfortable. But you feel like the benefits of the life that you were able to have and that level of flexibility really outweigh you missing the free bagels on Wednesday, given that the company says it's an option, you know, that we're going to do both. We're going to have both. You say, you know what? That's okay. I'm going to build my [00:32:00] relationships the other way.

 I'm going to speak for my work and my work is going to be exemplary and all of those things. And so those, those smaller things you have to, I think, in a way also let go of getting too overly wrapped up in, um, because then that distracts also from what you do bring.

And so I love the optimistic and very true way that you think about the value and the upside of what a remote worker perspective.

[00:32:29] Erika BergenWell, Kerri, thank you so much. 

[00:32:31] Kerri Warner: I thank you so much for having me and I've really enjoyed talking with you.

[00:32:35] Erika Bergenthank you for listening. Please subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. And you can learn more and join the community at workitremote. com.

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