Break Free From Your Electronic Leash

Break Free From Your Electronic Leash

Guest, Laura Jasen

Published February 27, 2025

Work It, Remote podcast.

All rights belong to Erika Bergen and the Work It, Remote podcast.

[00:00:00] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: I'm in Seattle this week for a mix of personal and business reasons.

But I spent yesterday catching up with a lot of old colleagues and friends in person, which was great. I know we're a remote working community. But it's always great, and I've said this in past episodes, when you can get in person and see people face to face, there's no replacement for it. But in these conversations, there was a theme that pervaded them, and it was just the state of the world, and what everybody is feeling overwhelmed by in what we're all seeing happen in our country and around the globe.

And so, I heard something that, I think sets us up nicely for what we're going to talk about today, which was this idea of I can't escape it, all of the information, because even the platforms and the new sites that were politic free is now those types of topics are creeping into those sites and into those platforms.

So I can't seem to escape it. 

This other theme that I heard of this, was this idea of just shutting it all down. And maybe you've experienced this. I know I have, where it's just, I just need to put my head in the sand for a little while. I don't want any messages coming at me. I'm getting off of all the apps. I'm just, I'm not watching or hearing any more news.

I'm just going to shut it all down. And then that's usually followed by the immediate guilt of, but it's more important than ever to be informed right now. So I know that's really bad. So I'm going to figure it out. And so there's this very complicated relationship that we're having. With our phones. 

 we're going to talk about those little electronic leashes today that keep us plugged into the news 24 7, to our work 24 7, to the life updates of our family and friends. Friends and to join me in this conversation is Laura Jasen. She is the owner of Sage and Sunshine Therapy, which offers therapeutic support, including mental health counseling in Florida and California.

And so welcome, Laura. Very happy to have you here. 

[00:02:16] Laura Jasen she/her: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. 

[00:02:19] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: I'd love your take on as we think about what's best for us and the information that we are surrounded by all the time. What's your take on the best way to think about that? 

[00:02:31] Laura Jasen she/her: Yeah. Well, I love the phrase that you used, um, electronic leashes because it's not a phrase I'd heard before, but I think it's very applicable to how our phones have just become almost an indoctrinated part of how we operate every single day. 

 One of the things that I like to say is that it's important to have a space and time where you're screen free. And maybe that's in your bedroom at home or the bathroom. Because how many people are now taking their phones with them when they go to the bathroom?

Because always have to have it on them. And really asking yourself, if this were a desktop computer, would I be carrying this with me into the bathroom? Would I have this out when I'm having dinner with someone I haven't seen in a while? Or while I'm at the playground with my child? Or getting that few minutes of connection with my partner after the end of a long day, and now I'm too worried about this, right?

So, if we need to Ask ourselves, would I do that with a full desktop or even a laptop? The answer probably is no, because we have that visual reminder. But because it's so small and easy and it just fits in our hands, it's very simple to forget that we have a little, you know, supercomputer that we're holding on to. So what, what is the appropriate amount, right? And one of the things that I like to say is, What does it look like first thing in the morning if you want to have a routine to check the news, see everything that has happened, and maybe you set a timer for 15 minutes, or you use some type of device that really puts a limitation, so there's a hard stop and you have to remind yourself, okay. I've invested 15 minutes already. Did I get what I wanted and needed from this? Um, as a mental health professional, I think it's important for me to have an idea of everything that's happening because I have a very diverse clientele that I see and deal with. So I want to know what's happening, which could be impacting and affecting them. Maybe, you know, you work in the tech field or you work, um, imports, exports, everything that's happening right now because of how intense everything feels. Thank you. can be considered important to know and not stick your head in the sand, but I would ask you to cue into your body. And if you're consuming news for an hour, are you starting to notice that you're getting agitated more easily? That you're you're wringing your hands or you're noticing that you're not really taking full breaths Like pay attention to your body because it will tell you how you're responding to what you're consuming 

[00:05:05] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: mm hmm.

 you mentioned creating device free time, And so is your thoughts there to have a set time every day there be a routine about it 

[00:05:19] Laura Jasen she/her: I think having a hard stop time in the evening is important, and you can build in parameters that really force yourself to abide by that hard stop time if that is something that you want to do, such as switching your phone to a black and white mode, so all the colors deprived off of the screen, or setting, timers or things along those lines within devices that will kind of start to wind down for you.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

[00:05:45] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: so on my phone, I have a quiet mode. Or rather, I have a sleep mode. So about an hour before I go to bed, everything goes quiet. And my phone, as long as it's not somebody who's listed under an emergency contact, I won't get the beep notification. All the notifications sort of stop.

 what I have found, and I'm curious on your, on your thoughts on this, is if there is something going on, right? And I know that there is something going on, especially if it's work related.

If there's something that I know someone might be contacting me, like I'm kind of on edge. that I will disregard that barrier. And that happens every so often, Where that will happen, where you just, you know there's a barrier, but you, but you have the power to blow right through it. And so you do. 

[00:06:32] Laura Jasen she/her: Yes. Mm hmm.

[00:06:33] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: I think there's some boundary setting. That we could do even for the people on the other side of the phone, right? To help us keep our boundary intact because we could create this boundary. But if we don't communicate it to others, then then 

We're more likely to ignore it ourselves. So what thoughts do you have on how we can communicate whatever our boundary is? To those we love or especially to those we work with. 

[00:07:00] Laura Jasen she/her: within the workplace is going to be specific to your occupation and the relationships that you have, you know, as well as what your responsiveness, um, is required of you within the workplace. In your role, right? And I love that you have set that quiet time, but you're also a human and you can set that boundary.

But when you're concerned or worried or anxious about something, you're going to peek over the fence and check and make sure that everything's okay, right? And so we have to say, okay, how often is this happening? Is it happening once a week or once a month? Is it okay? Once a month to feel this way or to violate that boundary? Um, Okay. But I think the more important point that you raise first is communicating to your co workers, colleagues, managers, whomever it may be. Hey, you know what? One of the things that's really important to me is that after X time, 8 PM, 9 PM, I'm not going to be responsive. I actually put my phone in do not disturb and I'm not checking messages. And I will check them at X time the following day and having that conversation with your coworkers, colleagues, managers to ensure that not only is that boundary heard, but it's agreed to because if they're agreeing to that boundary with you, that's half the battle of keeping that. Boundary, because now you're only 50 percent responsible for any relationship that you're in.

But if you're continuously saying, Hey, I'm not responding and people are pinging you and pinging you when you wake up in the morning, you pick your phone up, are you going to be overwhelmed by what's happening? Right? And 

[00:08:33] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: yeah,

[00:08:34] Laura Jasen she/her: every professional relationship will be a little bit different, but people are pretty receptive to having that downtime or that non responsive time. um, I'd like to actually go a little bit further on that and. What does it look like, over the weekends for you to maybe, I don't know, delete your work email off of your personal device or take teams or slack or whatever means of communication for work if it's not necessary, because we are creatures of habit, and sometimes we may just open it up when we have a little downtime and want to see what's happening, but it's not necessary.

The need versus want, right? 

[00:09:12] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: mm hmm, 

[00:09:13] Laura Jasen she/her: setting those clear electronic boundaries for yourself. Well, really, it really allows you to preserve your time away from work. All it be overnight, later in the day or over the weekend, or even more importantly, when you take leave. 

[00:09:27] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: yeah, I hear what you're saying, to just erase those apps off of your phone during those moments of quiet, like the weekends or during times off. Um, you could also have a separate phone, too, 

[00:09:37] Laura Jasen she/her: Absolutely. 

[00:09:39] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: work and personal, and I know that there are a lot of people who practice that. I started practicing that years ago, because I just felt like I didn't want, to lose my phone number, potentially.

And I also just felt like this big brother, right? Once you have content on your work phone, that content, technically your employer has visibility to it or access to it or ownership over it. So I, I wanted to separate that, but that's a, that could be another way to think about it if you don't already have separate devices to get that.

Now, right now I work for myself. So everything is on one phone. I don't have two phones that I carry around Um, I've always had that option. I don't have it now. Uh, let's not say that. I do have that option now. 

[00:10:22] Laura Jasen she/her: Yes. 

[00:10:22] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: don't feel like I have that luxury now. 

[00:10:26] Laura Jasen she/her: Yes. 

[00:10:27] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Financially to carry two devices.

[00:10:30] Laura Jasen she/her: right, right. And I'm a, I'm a big fan and proponent of the two device. space. I have a phone that is strictly for work and clients and all of that. And that's made abundantly clear when I work with clients. Hey, this is my work phone and I'm responsive from this time to this time. And that's it. And for me, it is so beautiful that I can just say, yep, that's work related. And if I want to check it, I can, I don't have to, because I have clearly communicated the boundaries and expectations within my responsiveness to, my customers, my clients. And it's very freeing to me. 

[00:11:07] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: me and entrepreneurship is about six months in being full time in it And I you know until now I never really even considered Doing doing a separate phone. I've always thought of that is when you have an employer and outside employer.

So that's interesting I'll have to think about that one. What about the Apple watch? 

[00:11:26] Laura Jasen she/her: So

[00:11:26] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: 

[00:11:27] Laura Jasen she/her: watch where I have it. I have a very old one, but I have everything disconnected from it. I only use it as a way to, for just, and this was just me personally to remind myself to get up every hour to. You know, get that little dopamine hit of when I close my exercise ring and I'm proud of myself for doing that or, you know, whatever it may be. it's just a light version of your cell phone, depending on If you have cellular set up to it and if you're getting your texts and your calls and everything, it's basically the same as having your phone. So, how much of you wants to be connected versus disconnected 

[00:12:05] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: So You don't get phone calls or text messages through your Apple Watch. 

[00:12:09] Laura Jasen she/her: do not. I disabled all of that.

[00:12:12] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Oh, interesting. 

[00:12:13] Laura Jasen she/her: well, and for me, when I'm working, my phone is in a separate room, everybody knows that I spend an hour with my clients, so I'm unavailable for an hour at a time, and I don't want to be distracted. I feel like if I'm doing a very good job, this is where my attention should be, is with the work that I'm doing. And if I'm constantly getting, you know, a ping here or there, who has the ability to not look down and check and see what that is? 

[00:12:40] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Mm hmm.

[00:12:41] Laura Jasen she/her: so in, in a lot of ways, you know, the attention economy, in my opinion, is the biggest economy right now. And if you're constantly getting pings and dings, if you have your Instagram set up on there or anything like that, you might as well just have your phone in your hand.

Mmm. 

[00:12:59] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Yeah. This actually reminds me of so Episode 13 talks about burnout and the framework that I used to talk about burnout is a framework that talks about sacrifice and renewal and that everybody goes through periods of sacrifice, especially as leaders. 

[00:13:13] Laura Jasen she/her: Mm hmm. 

[00:13:14] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Right? So as a leader, you, you go through sacrifice where you are committed to the work and you're under enormous amount of stress because of the decision making, because of the responsibility you have, because of the isolation you might feel in some of those decisions and consequences of those decisions.

But after every period of sacrifice, in order to avoid burnout, you have to go through a cycle of renewal. And renewal as defined by Boyotz and McKee, and that's the framework that this is taken from. Um, from their work is renewal has to include four things. so often we think about, okay, I'm going to reset or clear my mind by running on the treadmill or going for a walk, or I'm going to disconnect from my phone for the night and I'm going to recharge.

But their definition of renewal is much more holistic that it's mind, body, spirit, heart. 

[00:14:06] Laura Jasen she/her: Mmm.

[00:14:07] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: mind, body, spirit, heart, You need to touch on all four of those to truly recharge yourself after a period of intense stress or sacrifice.

And so, you know, what, what strikes me in saying that and what you shared earlier is like, what else can you do? With your time other than be on your phone because so often for me, too. It's like a form of checking out

[00:14:32] Laura Jasen she/her: Yes.

[00:14:32] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: It's like I'm checked out. My kids are in bed. My work is done for the day. So I'm gonna scroll Instagram but you never really feel recharged after I don't know what I don't know what value that's providing to me It very little there's some I do feel a little bit more I which I do find value in being informed on things and plugged in on things. 

[00:14:56] Laura Jasen she/her: Absolutely.

[00:14:57] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: it's not renewing or recharging me in any way. 

[00:15:01] Laura Jasen she/her: Well, sometimes I think the Instagram algorithm is almost like gambling in a way. what we know about like dopamine and gambling is basically people love to gamble because they love the uncertainty. And so maybe in a way, When the videos or you know, whatever is coming up for you, you're like, ooh, will I care about this?

Will I not care about this? Can I easily get rid of this? And there's absolutely no consequence, right? There's something that your brain has identified it likes about that and it enjoys. I'm wondering if you ever have caught yourself that the television's on in the background and you're still playing on your phone, but you thought you were watching a show.

[00:15:41] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Yeah, that happens.

[00:15:42] Laura Jasen she/her: Yeah. And it is the ultimate disassociation because, oh, I've turned on the television because there's something that I want to watch, but this little, electronic device is now taking my attention away from that. And so I'm disassociating because I'm not really paying attention to either one of those. 

[00:16:02] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Yeah, I've done that too actually not even with the Instagram. I've done that with work. So I'll say oh I have this I have a couple emails. I haven't finished or I have this, a couple slides I need to finish and so I'll go down and I'll move my workspace Into into the living room. I'll turn on the TV, but I'm actually working You know, in front of my laptop too, multitasking.

And I think that multitasking mentality is something that a lot of people experience. I don't know why we feel pressure to do that, but it's almost it. You feel like you feel maybe a little bit better about yourself. 'cause I'm not sitting in my office anymore on my computer 

[00:16:40] Laura Jasen she/her: I,

[00:16:41] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: now I'm doing it with a glass of wine and a TV show on, but. 

[00:16:45] Laura Jasen she/her: but I do believe what, what you're talking about is actually about connection and it ties into working remote because. if you were in an office environment, you might have just heard conversations or people going into meetings or just things that were happening in the office that you might observe while you were doing those tasks. But because you are alone, there's a desire for some type of connection or something, right? And, So, I think in a lot of ways, we're looking for those water cooler moments at home, we're

[00:17:18] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Mm, 

[00:17:19] Laura Jasen she/her: other means of technology to find them, because it's not like we can find someone to talk to if we're working at home alone, right? 

[00:17:27] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: yeah. Yeah, I, you know, I never thought about it that way. Yeah, for sure, of trying to create a sense of community or connection while you're working remote. And sometimes it's just my work day is really long and I feel like I want to get out of this more limiting, restrictive workspace and I'm ready to go into a different environment, but I actually still have work to do, so I just 

Bring it along for the ride. Yeah. 

[00:17:51] Laura Jasen she/her: you're confusing your brain, too, because a place that should be for relaxation is now work. So It's confusing to your body and your brain. Well, normally I get to slumber here and relax and not think about things, but now I'm asking my brain to be really productive in a place where I normally relax. So, I challenge you on what is it that you are actually gaining by doing that. And I'm guilty of it too, so, there are times where I do the same thing and I'm like, why am I doing this? Should I just stay in my office and finish this? But man, I really want to watch that next episode of Abbott Elementary because I'll laugh and I, I'm behind and I want to be able to talk to the people that watch it too. 

[00:18:32] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Yeah, 

[00:18:33] Laura Jasen she/her: I wanted to go back to, a question that you posed earlier. About news consumption or just keeping ourselves tied into what's happening in the world. And one of the things I've noticed in the past couple of years that I think can be beneficial are those morning newsletters that will summarize the current events or things that have happened. And I do think for people who struggling to know what that balance looks like. Maybe subscribing to a newsletter that you receive and read. And then saying, okay, I feel that I have checked my box and understanding or knowing what's happening. And then, in terms of the state of the world, I can move forward because I have this and only this.

And that's what I'm going to limit myself to. 

[00:19:19] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Now, how many newsletters Would you say because I am subscribed to many and I actually viewed that as a source of stress the newsletters 

[00:19:29] Laura Jasen she/her: as am I, because, oh, this one sounds good, and maybe this one has this or that. And, you know, I would say no more than three.   

[00:19:38] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: You mentioned that people should cue into their bodies when they're on their phone. And I think that would be helpful to just explore a little bit further what are the cues that people can use, physical or otherwise, other things that they can do to help them understand whether or not their relationship with their phone is.

Healthy or unhealthy or, you know, that they need to create stronger boundaries. 

[00:20:00] Laura Jasen she/her: Yes, so oftentimes we really don't pay attention to what we're feeling in our body. Uh, it's just not something in our culture that we're really taught to do. It's something that you have to learn to do and become aware of. 

[00:20:13] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: the best way to cue you into what your body is saying is when you're using your phone maybe too much or in abundance. Is the disassociation aspect of it where you may have just spent 15 minutes, but you can't really recall how you just spent that 15 minutes is often a feeling where people are driving and maybe they miss their exit on the interstate and you're like, Oh, I just couldn't.

[00:20:38] Laura Jasen she/her: I don't even know where my head was. I knew where I was going, but you're not really paying attention.

[00:20:42] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Hmm.

[00:20:43] Laura Jasen she/her: in your body. You're more just kind of observing it from afar. And a lot of times I think that's what happens with social media because there's music or videos and while we are consuming it, it's not like we're connecting to it.

[00:20:59] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: I understand that sense of just feeling like where did the time go?

 and what did I, I don't even remember what I, I did 

do you have a point of view here on What is a healthy amount of time to spend on social media? 

[00:21:15] Laura Jasen she/her: I would define anything that has a comment section as being social media.

[00:21:22] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Okay, 

[00:21:22] Laura Jasen she/her: And

[00:21:23] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: would be, I mean even the New York Times has comment sections. Mm 

[00:21:27] Laura Jasen she/her: And how long, how much of a rabbit hole can you go down reading what other people are thinking? so I, I think each person has to decide what their personal, what is personally best for you in terms of consumption. For some people it may be an hour. Um, but what I would say is if you're spending four plus hours a day on social media, which is what the average of an 18-year-old in the United States does. there some way better that you could be spending that time, right? 

[00:21:59] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: hmm. 

[00:22:00] Laura Jasen she/her: you know, just paying attention to it. I think the first thing to do is, like you mentioned before, is just to become aware. How much time am I spending on this? And what does it look like if you get that report once a week just to look at it and say, Wow, I didn't realize that an hour and a half every day was on Instagram or TikTok. And am I okay with that? Would I share that with other people? That Would I be okay telling people I'm on social media that often? 

[00:22:27] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Okay, so if there's a sense of shame or guilt around your usage time, that's probably a clue. 

What do you want people to take away in terms of how to have better boundaries 

[00:22:39] Laura Jasen she/her: Mm 

[00:22:40] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: devices?

[00:22:41] Laura Jasen she/her: The first thing that I think would be very helpful is, just having those device free spaces. Your bedroom, your bathroom, a certain place and just saying, I'm not going to use my device while I'm in here and working towards really staying true to that 

having a place where there is, the screens are just not allowed or having dinner with your family and not allowing screens, everyone puts their phone to the side and we're going to connect and have a conversation. I just think. we lose the ability to easily grab, there's something that shifts in our brain, like, Oh, if I have to get up and get the phone, do I really want to, to do this?

So a little bit out of reach may make you a little bit more in touch with what it is that you want to be doing. Another thing that I recommend is making your phone a little less the dopamine, dispenser that it is. If that means putting limitations, I'll be on social media, changing your phone from color to gray scale, dumbing down the phone so it's not as enjoyable to use. and also seeking connection that is real life and not based on things that are on the screen. It's great to feel that you have an online community. But we really thrive off of in person connection. And I think it's important for us to say, I should meet this person for coffee instead of just texting them back and forth. 

[00:24:17] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: we're going to have an episode later about that. Building community when you're working remotely because sometimes your work community is very different from where you are physically located. And so how you can go ahead and do that, because it's not as easy 

[00:24:31] Laura Jasen she/her: No,

[00:24:32] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: an adult to do that, especially if you're living somewhere where you don't have those deep roots, 

[00:24:36] Laura Jasen she/her: another thing that I would mention is just disconnecting personally, um, from your professional life, making those clear boundaries. That could be having separate devices, removing the email or Teams or whatever it is from your phone so that you are able to be fully present with yourself, and your loved ones when you're not working. 

[00:24:58] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Yeah, I love that tip. And then one thing that I'm going to take away from this conversation is what else can I be doing? Instead of scrolling Instagram at 9 30 at night, which is usually It's like whatever reason the phone it's like right before bed The phone comes out and I scroll for a little bit.

It's just this mindless activity. That's become a part of my routine and There was a time when I read Before I went to bed and that was a really great thing. I don't know when it stopped But I want to get back to that You 

[00:25:34] Laura Jasen she/her: You just said such a beautiful thing. You said, it's just a mindless thing that I'm doing. So what I would say is, if it's mindless, what can you shift to that's a little bit more mindful? Mm hmm. And if reading, I especially support reading fiction because it helps our imagination, especially as adults, we don't have a lot of avenues where our imagination is really encouraged.

So, if you can read fiction before bed, what would that do for you? I like to say, either old people hobbies or hurricane hobbies are really great because Normally, they don't include electricity, a screen, and they are more along the lines of putting a puzzle together, doing maybe like a word search, sewing, things that really connect you, 

[00:26:19] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Mm hmm. Yeah, because the idea is you want to, you, you want to go into your sleep 

[00:26:25] Laura Jasen she/her: Mm 

[00:26:26] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: feeling like your mind is free. It's not weighed down by the burdens of the day, the burdens of the world.

how can people get in touch with you, Laura? 

[00:26:35] Laura Jasen she/her: so best way to reach me would be on my website, which is sageandsunshinetherapy.Com. I do have some social media, not the biggest user of it, but do have an Instagram and Facebook profile. I am a certified, mental health therapist that provides therapy to clients in California, Florida, and now Arizona. And, would love to have conversations just like this, but a little bit more in the therapeutic sense with anybody who's looking for support and guidance. 

[00:27:03] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: Great. Well, thank you, Laura.

[00:27:05] Laura Jasen she/her: Thank you.

[00:27:05] Erika Joseph Bergen she/her: If you enjoy this conversation today, would love it if you could comment on wherever you might be getting this podcast episode. It really helps me to get rated and reviewed and comments. So just asking for your support there. Also, if you haven't already, please subscribe.

You can go to workitremote.Com to join the community and to learn more about Laura and get the show notes and the transcript and all of that. So be well, take care and see you next time. 

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